[eDebate] Challenge to the Community

[Steven D'Amico]

does anyone else find this similar to Stalin arguing with Hitler? As an
Italian I'll just side with whoever wins.

On 4/4/07, Andy Ellis <andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote:

>

> Thank you Omri, i do indeed feel more informed. But really this is the

> last time...so sad...

>

> On 4/4/07, Omri Ceren <ceren at usc.edu > wrote:

> >

> > OK. Now we're going to discuss "tone".

> >

> > When I said "seriously", it worked because I made your position seem

> > obviously absurd and kind of stupid. I accomplished that by juxtaposing

> > and re-characterizing your positions in such a way as to make you seem

> > nonsensical.

> >

> > When you said "seriously", you followed it up by whining that "the

> > debates you see are more ideologically determined and constrained than

> > the ones i see." This, to put it mildly, failed to really provide the

> > rhetorical umpff that you were looking for.

> >

> > Let's try this again (but, honestly, this is going to have to be the

> > last time): the conceit by which you take it upon yourself to challenge

> > the debate community to attack itself emerges from a combination of

> > ignorance, smugness, and pretension that makes me almost feel bad about

> > publicly mocking you. You need the debate community to be as dull and

> > unnuanced as you are so that you can continue in this pathetic moral

> > exhibitionism, where your desperate need to convince yourself of your

> > own superiority comes together with an inchoate sense of what counts as

> > political activism.

> >

> > You really should stop pretending that you have either the authority or

> > credibility to challenge anybody to do anything. It's getting to be kind

> >

> > of sad.

> >

> > Omri.

> >

> >

> >

> > On 4/4/2007 3:26 PM Andy Ellis wrote:

> > > Seriously? are you really saying people dont make that answer and win

> > a

> > > lot of debates on it? The debates you see are more ideologically

> > > determined and constrained than the ones i see. And yes at least those

> > > folks who debated milliken have a great legal knowledge to provide to

> > > their campuses...

> > >

> > > On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>> wrote:

> > >

> > >     Seriously? This year's Milliken affirmatives advocated using the

> > USSC to

> > >     address de facto segregation in school districts. You think that

> > this

> > >     means that they said that the "the law is the best way to end

> > racial

> > >     discrimination in education", and in response you petulantly

> > chellenged

> > >     the community to sue... itself. And you can't understand why this

> > is an

> > >     example of how you don't get nuance?

> > >

> > >     Seriously?

> > >

> > >     Omri.

> > >

> > >     On 4/4/2007 3:17 PM Andy Ellis wrote:

> > >      > Also, what is it exactly that i am doing that you are

> > elaborating a

> > >      > community critique of?...like is this a criticism that goes

> > andy

> > >     ellis

> > >      > is a wacko  or does it actualy engage the work being done on

> > the

> > >     ground

> > >      > in baltimore to further this goal,if its the former i know that

> > >     stuff if

> > >      > its the latter, id like to hear your version of that

> > criticism....

> > >      >

> > >      > On 4/4/07, *Andy Ellis* < andy.edebate at gmail.com

> > >     <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com>

> > >      > <mailto: andy.edebate at gmail.com <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com

> > >>>

> > >     wrote:

> > >      >

> > >      >     So tell me omri (and i dont ask this with the lazy

> > revolutionary

> > >      >     bombast i often espouse) what have you learned from a year

> > of

> > >      >     milliken debates that you are now using and working with

> > your

> > >      >     debaters on to address racial discrimination in education?

> > >      >

> > >      >

> > >      >     On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu

> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu> <mailto: ceren at usc.edu

> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>> wrote:

> > >      >

> > >      >         No. You just don't get it.

> > >      >

> > >      >         There's actually a relatively robust criticism to be

> > made

> > >     of you,

> > >      >         tracing how risk-free revolutionary posturing can hold

> > >     the good

> > >      >         hostage

> > >      >         to the perfect while using aggressive smugness to

> > insulate

> > >      >         intellectual

> > >      >         laziness. So for instance, no one of any intellectual

> > >     care would

> > >      >         claim

> > >      >         to have seen the best debaters in the country claiming

> > >     that "law

> > >      >         is [the

> > >      >         best method]... of pursuing racial justice in

> > education".

> > >     First

> > >      >         of all,

> > >      >         outside of a very precise use in pyschoanalytic

> > critical

> > >     literature,

> > >      >         "the Law" isn't a meaningful category. There are

> > multiple

> > >      >         branches and

> > >      >         levels of government empowered to enforce legislative

> > and

> > >     judicial

> > >      >         decisions - and while I know that most of the debates

> > >     that you

> > >      >         saw this

> > >      >         year didn't really think that those distinctions

> > mattered,

> > >      >         that's kind

> > >      >         of my point too.

> > >      >

> > >      >         Anyway, like I said - there's a relatively robust

> > >     criticism of your

> > >      >         personal sensibility, political ideology, and

> > interpersonal

> > >      >         community.

> > >      >         But I doubt you'd get it.

> > >      >

> > >      >         Omri.

> > >      >

> > >      >

> > >      >         On 4/4/2007 3:00 PM Andy Ellis wrote:

> > >      >         >  Uh right, i will continue to do the work outside of

> > >     the legal

> > >      >         structure

> > >      >         >  and in it when necessary to increase minority access

> > >     to and

> > >      >         completion

> > >      >         >  of college. I dont doubt the  efficacy of my

> > methods,

> > >     and sure

> > >      >         i didnt

> > >      >         >  see the same debates you saw but my term heard and i

> > >     saw many

> > >      >         teams

> > >      >         >  adamently defending the necessity of using the law

> > to

> > >      >         challenege racial

> > >      >         >  discrimination and i am simply asking those that

> > made the

> > >      >         claims to

> > >      >         >  follow up on them.

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >  Furthermore i understand debaters cant sue for other

> > >     peoples

> > >      >         >  inclusion(in a basic sense of the term i think there

> >

> > >     could be

> > >      >         a claimant

> > >      >         >  who suggested that they where damaged by the lack of

> > >     minority

> > >      >         inclusion

> > >      >         >  in the community, but im probably wrong like you

> > said

> > >     im not

> > >      >         in the

> > >      >         >  highly technical debates) but there are legal cases

> > and

> > >      >         movements that

> > >      >         >  debaters can contribute their skills and dedication

> > to

> > >     and

> > >      >         furthermore

> > >      >         >  if through those super high end debates you saw

> > >     provide the

> > >      >         training

> > >      >         >  they promise then it seems as if you can figure out

> > how to

> > >      >         uses cases on

> > >      >         >  your campus as entree points to legal justice

> > movements.

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >  or maybe all those things i heard in debates where

> > >     just lies

> > >      >         and nods to

> > >      >         >  racial inclusion?

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >  On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu

> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu> <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>

> >

> > >      >         <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>

> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>>> wrote:

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >     Andy,

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >     Surely you should be leading this effort, what

> > with

> > >     all of the

> > >      >         >     topic-specific research that I'm sure you did

> > this

> > >     year.

> > >      >         And with all

> > >      >         >     the high-tech policy rounds that you judged and

> > >     scouted.

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >     Omri.

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >     On 4/4/2007 9:55 AM Andy Ellis wrote:

> > >      >         >      > So after a year of hearing debates about how

> > the

> > >     law is

> > >      >         not only

> > >      >         >     a good

> > >      >         >      > means of pursuing racial justice in education,

> > >     but the

> > >      >         best method, i

> > >      >         >      > have a challenge to offer. Use the skills that

> > >     you have

> > >      >         acquired in

> > >      >         >      > debating about the law to craft a strategy

> > that

> > >     uses the

> > >      >         law to

> > >      >         >     increase

> > >      >         >      > meaningful minority participation in the

> > >     community. The

> > >      >         NCAA has been

> > >      >         >      > sued for admissions requirements that

> > preference

> > >     test

> > >      >         scores and

> > >      >         >     gpa, if

> > >      >         >      > there is precedent in that or other cases

> > there

> > >     should

> > >      >         be a case

> > >      >         >     to sue

> > >      >         >      > your university or your debate team or ceda or

> > >     the ndt,

> > >      >         if they have

> > >      >         >      > those standards. But dont let my suggestions

> > >     limit you,

> > >      >         many many

> > >      >         >     many

> > >      >         >      > of you have researched and learned a whole lot

> > about

> > >      >         using the

> > >      >         >     law to

> > >      >         >      > fight for racial justice in education, you im

> > >     sure can

> > >      >         come up with

> > >      >         >      > something on your own.

> > >      >         >      >

> > >      >         >      >

> > >      >         >      >

> > >      >         >

> > >      >

> > >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >      >         >      >

> > >      >         >      >

> > _______________________________________________

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> > >      >         <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com

> > >     <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com> <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com

> > >     <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>>

> > >      >         >      > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate

> >

> > >      >         >      >

> > >      >         >      >

> > >      >         >      >

> > >      >         >

> > >      >

> > >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >      >

> > >      >         >      >

> > >      >         >      > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > >      >         >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > >      >         >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746

> > -

> > >      >         Release Date:

> > >      >         >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >     --

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >     --------------

> > >      >         >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for

> > Communication

> > >      >         >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>

> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>> <mailto:

> > >      >         ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu> <mailto:

> > >     ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>>

> > >      >         >     Mobile: 412-512-7256

> > >      >         >     --------------

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >

> > >      >

> > >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >      >         >

> > >      >         >  No virus found in this incoming message.

> > >      >         >  Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > >      >         >  Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 -

> > Release

> > >      >         Date: 4/4/2007 1:09 PM

> > >      >

> > >      >

> > >      >         --

> > >      >

> > >      >

> > >      >         --------------

> > >      >         PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication

> > >      >         Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>

> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>

> > >      >         Mobile: 412-512-7256

> > >      >         --------------

> > >      >

> > >      >

> > >      >

> > >      >

> > >      >

> > >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >      >

> > >      > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release

> > Date:

> > >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM

> > >

> > >

> > >     --

> > >

> > >

> > >     --------------

> > >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication

> > >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>

> > >     Mobile: 412-512-7256

> > >     --------------

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release Date:

> > 4/4/2007 1:09 PM

> >

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> > --------------

> > PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication

> > Email: ceren at usc.edu

> > Mobile: 412-512-7256

> > --------------

> >

> >

>

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