[eDebate] Challenge to the Community

[Andy Ellis]

Seriously? are you really saying people dont make that answer and win a lot
of debates on it? The debates you see are more ideologically determined and
constrained than the ones i see. And yes at least those folks who debated
milliken have a great legal knowledge to provide to their campuses...

On 4/4/07, Omri Ceren <ceren at usc.edu> wrote:

>

> Seriously? This year's Milliken affirmatives advocated using the USSC to

> address de facto segregation in school districts. You think that this

> means that they said that the "the law is the best way to end racial

> discrimination in education", and in response you petulantly chellenged

> the community to sue... itself. And you can't understand why this is an

> example of how you don't get nuance?

>

> Seriously?

>

> Omri.

>

> On 4/4/2007 3:17 PM Andy Ellis wrote:

> > Also, what is it exactly that i am doing that you are elaborating a

> > community critique of?...like is this a criticism that goes andy ellis

> > is a wacko  or does it actualy engage the work being done on the ground

> > in baltimore to further this goal,if its the former i know that stuff if

> > its the latter, id like to hear your version of that criticism....

> >

> > On 4/4/07, *Andy Ellis* <andy.edebate at gmail.com

> > <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com>> wrote:

> >

> >     So tell me omri (and i dont ask this with the lazy revolutionary

> >     bombast i often espouse) what have you learned from a year of

> >     milliken debates that you are now using and working with your

> >     debaters on to address racial discrimination in education?

> >

> >

> >     On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>

> wrote:

> >

> >         No. You just don't get it.

> >

> >         There's actually a relatively robust criticism to be made of

> you,

> >         tracing how risk-free revolutionary posturing can hold the good

> >         hostage

> >         to the perfect while using aggressive smugness to insulate

> >         intellectual

> >         laziness. So for instance, no one of any intellectual care would

> >         claim

> >         to have seen the best debaters in the country claiming that "law

> >         is [the

> >         best method]... of pursuing racial justice in education". First

> >         of all,

> >         outside of a very precise use in pyschoanalytic critical

> literature,

> >         "the Law" isn't a meaningful category. There are multiple

> >         branches and

> >         levels of government empowered to enforce legislative and

> judicial

> >         decisions - and while I know that most of the debates that you

> >         saw this

> >         year didn't really think that those distinctions mattered,

> >         that's kind

> >         of my point too.

> >

> >         Anyway, like I said - there's a relatively robust criticism of

> your

> >         personal sensibility, political ideology, and interpersonal

> >         community.

> >         But I doubt you'd get it.

> >

> >         Omri.

> >

> >

> >         On 4/4/2007 3:00 PM Andy Ellis wrote:

> >         >  Uh right, i will continue to do the work outside of the legal

> >         structure

> >         >  and in it when necessary to increase minority access to and

> >         completion

> >         >  of college. I dont doubt the  efficacy of my methods, and

> sure

> >         i didnt

> >         >  see the same debates you saw but my term heard and i saw many

> >         teams

> >         >  adamently defending the necessity of using the law to

> >         challenege racial

> >         >  discrimination and i am simply asking those that made the

> >         claims to

> >         >  follow up on them.

> >         >

> >         >  Furthermore i understand debaters cant sue for other peoples

> >         >  inclusion(in a basic sense of the term i think there could be

> >         a claimant

> >         >  who suggested that they where damaged by the lack of minority

> >         inclusion

> >         >  in the community, but im probably wrong like you said im not

> >         in the

> >         >  highly technical debates) but there are legal cases and

> >         movements that

> >         >  debaters can contribute their skills and dedication to and

> >         furthermore

> >         >  if through those super high end debates you saw provide the

> >         training

> >         >  they promise then it seems as if you can figure out how to

> >         uses cases on

> >         >  your campus as entree points to legal justice movements.

> >         >

> >         >  or maybe all those things i heard in debates where just lies

> >         and nods to

> >         >  racial inclusion?

> >         >

> >         >  On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu

> >

> >         <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>> wrote:

> >         >

> >         >     Andy,

> >         >

> >         >     Surely you should be leading this effort, what with all of

> the

> >         >     topic-specific research that I'm sure you did this year.

> >         And with all

> >         >     the high-tech policy rounds that you judged and scouted.

> >         >

> >         >     Omri.

> >         >

> >         >     On 4/4/2007 9:55 AM Andy Ellis wrote:

> >         >      > So after a year of hearing debates about how the law is

> >         not only

> >         >     a good

> >         >      > means of pursuing racial justice in education, but the

> >         best method, i

> >         >      > have a challenge to offer. Use the skills that you have

> >         acquired in

> >         >      > debating about the law to craft a strategy that uses

> the

> >         law to

> >         >     increase

> >         >      > meaningful minority participation in the community. The

> >         NCAA has been

> >         >      > sued for admissions requirements that preference test

> >         scores and

> >         >     gpa, if

> >         >      > there is precedent in that or other cases there should

> >         be a case

> >         >     to sue

> >         >      > your university or your debate team or ceda or the ndt,

> >         if they have

> >         >      > those standards. But dont let my suggestions limit you,

> >         many many

> >         >     many

> >         >      > of you have researched and learned a whole lot about

> >         using the

> >         >     law to

> >         >      > fight for racial justice in education, you im sure can

> >         come up with

> >         >      > something on your own.

> >         >      >

> >         >      >

> >         >      >

> >         >

> >

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> >         >      >

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> >

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> >

> >         >      >

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> >         >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM

> >         >

> >         >

> >         >     --

> >         >

> >         >

> >         >     --------------

> >         >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication

> >         >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu> <mailto:

> >         ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>

> >         >     Mobile: 412-512-7256

> >         >     --------------

> >         >

> >         >

> >         >

> >         >

> >

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> >

> >

> >         --

> >

> >

> >         --------------

> >         PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication

> >         Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>

> >         Mobile: 412-512-7256

> >         --------------

> >

> >

> >

> >

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> 4/4/2007 1:09 PM

>

>

> --

>

>

> --------------

> PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication

> Email: ceren at usc.edu

> Mobile: 412-512-7256

> --------------

>

>

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